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MattMcClowry
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« Reply #120 on: January 06, 2010, 03:48:30 AM »

Thanks everybody! We did it the old fashioned way (uni-directional xlr mics) so here's hoping...
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« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2010, 07:00:26 PM »

Ok, well, good news, bad news...haven't gotten a chance to work on my new riff yet, thanks to numerous drawbacks, not the least of which is the other voice project I was working on.  Turns out Wavepad, though it was only 2 years old, was using a version of LAME that was 10 years old, and it was giving the coders on that project a hard time, since their system was too new to render LAME software that old properly and was giving them error messages.  So, I tried downloading the newest version of Wavepad to fix the problem.

Turns out NCH, the company that creates Wavepad, changed their trial version rules...instead of crippling most of the software's functions, but allowing you to use the rest for free if so desired, they changed the software to the good ol' "after 30 days, you just have to pay for the whole thing" rule.

In other words, I no longer endorse Wavepad as a tool to use in editing.  They had their chance, and blew it.  Audacity from now on.

It seems mostly similar, but I have an issue that is a major annoyance that I'd like to fix if I could...I have a big WAV file that I need to edit down into littler mp3 files.  Trouble is, every time I want to generate a new file to save, Audacity opens a new window.  All I want, really, is a new timeline to paste into, all within the same window, but I can't find an option that allow me to do that.  Now, if I IMPORT audio, it creates a new timeline, just like I want, but it already has audio in it.  If I create a blank timeline, it doesn't allow me to paste into it...it just stays blank.  Anyone know if I can do this without opening 30 bajillion windows at once?

EDIT: Oop.  Never mind.  I just resized the windows, and when I create a new file it stays that size.  It's not quite like Wavepad, but it's good enough for what I'm doing.  And I still no longer endorse Wavepad.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 07:06:34 PM by SJP » Logged
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« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2010, 07:23:06 PM »

Wait did you send me an PM a while back, I get the notices when i bring up a page but I think this one must have been on an earlier page when i got two PMs.

Anyway I have Monday off I'll try to finish the script. Smiley
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« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2010, 07:30:26 PM »

Oh, yes, yes I did.  The "other voice project" is actually something else, though...I'll actually have to announce that on a separate board once I'm done with it.

But I don't want to derail the topic too much, so...tips for riffing...ah, here's one...

Follow your dreams.  You can succeed, I'm living proof.  Beefcake.   Grin
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« Reply #124 on: January 14, 2010, 08:15:42 PM »

Ok, well, good news, bad news...haven't gotten a chance to work on my new riff yet, thanks to numerous drawbacks, not the least of which is the other voice project I was working on.  Turns out Wavepad, though it was only 2 years old, was using a version of LAME that was 10 years old, and it was giving the coders on that project a hard time, since their system was too new to render LAME software that old properly and was giving them error messages.  So, I tried downloading the newest version of Wavepad to fix the problem.

Turns out NCH, the company that creates Wavepad, changed their trial version rules...instead of crippling most of the software's functions, but allowing you to use the rest for free if so desired, they changed the software to the good ol' "after 30 days, you just have to pay for the whole thing" rule.

In other words, I no longer endorse Wavepad as a tool to use in editing.  They had their chance, and blew it.  Audacity from now on.

It seems mostly similar, but I have an issue that is a major annoyance that I'd like to fix if I could...I have a big WAV file that I need to edit down into littler mp3 files.  Trouble is, every time I want to generate a new file to save, Audacity opens a new window.  All I want, really, is a new timeline to paste into, all within the same window, but I can't find an option that allow me to do that.  Now, if I IMPORT audio, it creates a new timeline, just like I want, but it already has audio in it.  If I create a blank timeline, it doesn't allow me to paste into it...it just stays blank.  Anyone know if I can do this without opening 30 bajillion windows at once?

EDIT: Oop.  Never mind.  I just resized the windows, and when I create a new file it stays that size.  It's not quite like Wavepad, but it's good enough for what I'm doing.  And I still no longer endorse Wavepad.
What I've done is import the wave.  Than highlight and copy to the clipboard.  Next, just record like two seconds to make a new track in the same window.  After that just highlight the new track and paste over it.  If I'm following what you're trying to do that should work for you.  Basically, you will be creating someplace to actually paste into.
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« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2010, 05:41:49 PM »

Just a little tip on promotion.  You never know when you can influence a little word of mouth movement.  Just today I was browsing through dvds at an Utlimate Electronics store when I heard a girl telling her boyfriend "yes, really.  I'm looking for bad movies so we can make fun of them."  You'll rarely hear a better person to mention that you're a riffer to.  Not sure if they'll buy anything, but they did ask how they could find my stuff as they left.  Just keep your ears open in the right situations and don't be afraid to approach people if you really think they'll be open to it.
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« Reply #126 on: January 20, 2010, 08:21:42 AM »

Just a little tip on promotion.  You never know when you can influence a little word of mouth movement.  Just today I was browsing through dvds at an Utlimate Electronics store when I heard a girl telling her boyfriend "yes, really.  I'm looking for bad movies so we can make fun of them."  You'll rarely hear a better person to mention that you're a riffer to.  Not sure if they'll buy anything, but they did ask how they could find my stuff as they left.  Just keep your ears open in the right situations and don't be afraid to approach people if you really think they'll be open to it.

And don't overlook the local press, you'd be surpised.
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« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2010, 08:11:35 PM »

Brace yourselves... another one of my lenghty, detailed (but hopefully 'worth it') posts.  Smiley

It’s the method you come up with yourself that's going to work best for you.  I was a little confused at first as well but I just tried to figure out what would be the simplest way.

[The above comment was in a thread on just writing scripts [here: http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,14903.0.html], but this stickied thread gets more traffic and will likely be seen a lot more, plus I'm not just commenting on scripting, so I'll respond here, since a fair amount of what was covered there - and more - is covered in this thread. I read all of both before I started my first iRiff.  Thanks to all who contributed ideas to each, or I would've been totally lost when I started.]

I agree with mr.b. in the above quote: whatever works for you.  But all the ideas given are great springboards to get you started in figuring out what out of this smorgasbord will work for you, as you may try a little of each to figure out what fits with your style.  [Though written as plain prose, I numbered the following so that it would be clearer that each paragraph was a mostly-independent step.]

1.   I've started my first iRiff.  Prior to starting, I'd just commented that I was thinking about the particular riff in a thread (the Halloween Movie LoC).  Since I got spontaneous responses that at least two people would be interested (out of the few that were following that thread), I figured the appeal might be pretty high overall.  If you want people to actually buy your iRiff - as opposed to your just wanting to riff the film - then you really need to consider if the film had enough appeal for people to give it a try.  There are a couple iRiffs for obscure films that aren't VODs in the iRiff listings.  One of them was for a discontinued French import with a link to the France branch of Amazon.Com, where the page said, "item not found".  With DVDs simply not available, the iRiffs will never get bought.

2.   So far, what's worked for me to come up with the script was this:  The first thing I did was get familiar with the movie (in the case of what I'm riffing, Karloff's Frankenstein, that wasn't a problem: it's a favorite film).  For a film you've seen only once or twice it would likely be a lot harder to figure out what is actually riffable in it, unless you are going with just superficial comments or events.  In other words, the deeper riffs that might be the most enjoyable might be missed if you're barely familiar with the film.

3.   Another major thing to do is, if the movie you chose seems very confusing, spend time figuring out what is going on, and what the writer/director wanted viewers to perceive was going on.  If there seems to be logical conflicts within the film (there often are  Grin ), then spend a little time trying to figure out what was supposed to be happening.  There is little that is more annoying while watching a riffing than to have the riffer make comments about how "confusing" the film is if a couple minutes thought by the viewer could reconcile the confusion.  This is particularly annoying if the riffer talked/riffed over the top of the explanation for what is going on (on rare occasion, Mike, Kevin and Bill have even done this *cough*DragonWars:D-War*cough*).  Basically, if you can't manage to understand the film to the degree that viewers were 'supposed' to, then your riffing of it will suffer for that, because simply drawing attention to a logical conflict is far less amusing than is taking the 'understood' conflict and making a funny comment playing off of that.  The latter is funnier to those who are better educated (and 'better educated' seems to be the case of most of those who enjoy the humor in this type of commentary).

4.   After watching your film a couple/three times, you can write down some ideas.  Personally, I let it 'percolate' for a few days with the movie fresh.  During those few days, a bunch of ideas came to me, that I hand wrote into a notebook (handier than running to the computer if I was elsewhere at the time).  Later, since those eight pages of thoughts were massively out-of-sequence, I cut the pages up and reordered them to fit the proper sequence for the film and transcribed that into a script form. (Obviously that resequencing is easier with a film you are familiar with: if you don't know roughly where in the film an event happens, it is a logistical nightmare to get it in a typed script form.  If you are pretty close, its easy enough to move a comment here and there.)

5.   Then I did what someone previously suggested: recording a 'raw' riffing while playing the film.  That gets the spontaneous ideas down somewhere, while not interrupting your being comedically 'on' by stopping to write/type what you came up with.  [According to the two behind the scenes shows, with MST3K that was solved more easily by having one of the 8 or 9 of them at the computer, typing everything as it was said, while the rest could simply riff spontaneously without having to think about keeping track of what was said.  If you don't have a personal stenographer handy, you may want to go with the recording.  Grin ]

6.   Then, having both some core comments from the hand-written stuff (which - for me - seem to be the 'deepest' riffings, as they were the most thoughtful), and the raw audio riffing (which add 'immediacy'), I sat down at the computer with the script format open, and started to sort-of transcribe what was on the tape.  I say, 'sort-of' transcribe, because while some basic ideas from the raw riffing were good, they needed a lot of 'optimizing' to be as funny as possible.  During the time I was working on the script, I of course added timecodes to the script entries from what I'd transcribed from the notebook, as well as for the new additions.

7.   And, of course, between your pre-prepared riffs from notes and audio recording, there will be occasionally long dead spaces in your script [I found the presence of a lot of dead spaces especially true in Frankenstein  Cheesy ].  There are other comments here and in the "How do you write a script for an iRiff?" thread that cover this.  What I found was that many of those ideas work: both watching short segments (10-20 seconds) and see what comes up based on dialogue, or else searching out the background for something to riff.  Often the most obscure thing may be the most poignant to some listeners: as Kevin said in one of the MST3K behind the scenes shows, that is the kind of comment where some viewer would be saying, "get out of my head!".  In one of those shows one of them (I think Trace) also said about obscure comments, "We never ask, 'who will get that?' we say, 'the right person will get that.'  And don't forget the music: sometimes the music itself can be riffed (it may be inappropriate to the scene, or else deliberately being evocative of another film, for instance).

Oh, another thing: One thing I recently experienced with an iRiff was too many riffs.  When there isn't time enough between riffs to 'get a break', each and every one of them gets less funny.  Try for a gap of about 8-10 seconds between the end of one comment and the start of the next (but 20 seconds between appears to be too long a break unless there's dense dialogue going on).  The only way that you can figure this out is to time saying your lines with the movie, in the tone and at the pace you think would have best effect.  Besides the lessening of the amusement factor from riffs being too frequent, it is also next to impossible for a viewer to keep track of what is going on in the film if the riffing is nearly constant.  They get pulled out of the film by the over-riffing, and then they aren't invested enough in the film to care about the comments.  But the biggest problem is if you are riffing from something appearing on-screen (instead of a bit of dialogue), there isn't enough time for anyone to 'search out' what you were riffing in the picture before they are expected to be comprehending the next riff.

I am not yet half-way finished with the script I'm writing, but what I've got - I think - is pretty good.  Since I'm where I'm at with it, obviously I can't add anything as far as recording goes.  With one exception: make sure that whatever microphone/audio card you use together are fully compatible and don't generate noise before you record a final iRiff MP3 [from the 'raw riffing' I found that my laptop's audio card added a massive amount of noise to the recording throughout, so from that I know that I will have to use my tower to record the final iRiff].  A quiet recording area is also essential; do something like hang a comforter around the area you are working if at all possible to muffle room noises.

Just a little tip on promotion.  You never know when you can influence a little word of mouth movement.  Just today I was browsing through dvds at an Utlimate Electronics store when I heard a girl telling her boyfriend "yes, really.  I'm looking for bad movies so we can make fun of them."  You'll rarely hear a better person to mention that you're a riffer to.  Not sure if they'll buy anything, but they did ask how they could find my stuff as they left.  Just keep your ears open in the right situations and don't be afraid to approach people if you really think they'll be open to it.

A great idea!  And I'll add to it: if you have even a little bit of graphics abilities (which you probably do, as you have to/had to make a 'movie poster' for your iRiff), use your computer and pre-perforated business card forms that you can buy at any office supply store to make your own iRiff business cards with links to RiffTrax and your iRiffs (as well as, obviously, your iRiffing name).  Grin  How cool would it be to - if you get an opening like RoninFox - to walk up, business card in hand and say, "Bond...  James Bond..."  oops, other situation...  walk up, talk a little bit about riffing, and say, "if you are interested in movies with funny commentaries you may find some of these interesting," while handing them a professional-looking card, impressing the hell out of them (possibly enough for them to actually go to the web site).

If you have/give out your business card freely (rather than waiting/hoping that the person will ask for more information), then your name/iRiffs will get more recognition.  That's because many people won't ask you for more information on their own.  Obviously that's why there's workers asked to say, "may I help you with something?" in stores: people are far less likely to ask than to take you up on an offer if it is given with no effort on their part.


OK... back to your regularly scheduled thread....
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 02:59:02 AM by LucasM » Logged

    
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« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2010, 11:00:02 PM »

Wow, that's a long post!  But you quoted me and that is always a wise decision.  Smiley
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« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2010, 03:05:55 AM »

Wow, that's a long post!  But you quoted me and that is always a wise decision.  Smiley

Particularly since my comment about the quote was, "I agree with mr.b."?  Grin


By the way, does anyone know of a program that basically creates a teleprompter out of one's computer screen?  I'm thinking one that could be 'fed' maybe PDF files and they would be manually scrollable on-screen (preferably without page breaks), but with enough transparency to the text pages so that you could see a film being shown behind it while you scrolled.  And, of course, ideally it would have a large-ish time clock that one could choose the position of (or even just the clock being fixed in the upper left corner would be fine).  If not, any programmers out there that could create one?  Wink

(Oh, and if it could work on a system running Windows 2000, that would be superb!)
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« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2010, 02:35:14 PM »

On our Tom & Jon iRiffs, given Tom's and my lack of professional voice-acting talents, we had to do quite a bit of work normalizing the level on each of the jokes, and cutting out the silences between jokes to get a decent audio quality.  This was made tougher by the fact that we got louder and softer throughout the recording, and that we had different trim levels for each mic, sometimes even changing _during_ the recording process or if we did the recording in segments.

So I wrote a small tool for pre-processing our recordings.  It takes an uncompressed WAV file as an input, and then tries to auto-detect background noise levels, silencing the noise, doing a fade-in and fade-out on all the jokes, and then normalizes each of the sections so that the volumes are all _close_ to the same level.  The program then saves the output as an uncompressed WAV file as well.  Using that new WAV file in Audacity (and I'm sure other applications) I just use the "Detach at Silence" tool, and then re-arrange the riff chunks to my heart's content.

Is this a tool anyone else would find useful?  There is still some tweaking I would do to make it more generally useful, and/or user friendly ;-).  During long periods of silence, the silence finding algorithm drifts down so some random mic noise and breathing may be passed though.  Right now it's easy to kill those after the fact, but I could add in some more options to try to prevent that from occurring in the first place (minimum dB levels, for example).

I was thinking of including the application along with our upcoming iRiff, the Tale of Despereaux, depending on if we can upload random (though virus-free!) content.  That's a good deal if you were going to buy the iRiff anyway, as the app is then "free", but it's kind of underhanded if you didn't want to watch ToD anyway [8^)

Any feedback on this?  I can do a bit more work if anyone is interested.

Jonathan
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« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2010, 06:16:02 PM »

On our Tom & Jon iRiffs, given Tom's and my lack of professional voice-acting talents, we had to do quite a bit of work normalizing the level on each of the jokes, and cutting out the silences between jokes to get a decent audio quality.  This was made tougher by the fact that we got louder and softer throughout the recording, and that we had different trim levels for each mic, sometimes even changing _during_ the recording process or if we did the recording in segments.

So I wrote a small tool for pre-processing our recordings.  It takes an uncompressed WAV file as an input, and then tries to auto-detect background noise levels, silencing the noise, doing a fade-in and fade-out on all the jokes, and then normalizes each of the sections so that the volumes are all _close_ to the same level.  The program then saves the output as an uncompressed WAV file as well.  Using that new WAV file in Audacity (and I'm sure other applications) I just use the "Detach at Silence" tool, and then re-arrange the riff chunks to my heart's content.

Is this a tool anyone else would find useful?  There is still some tweaking I would do to make it more generally useful, and/or user friendly ;-).  During long periods of silence, the silence finding algorithm drifts down so some random mic noise and breathing may be passed though.  Right now it's easy to kill those after the fact, but I could add in some more options to try to prevent that from occurring in the first place (minimum dB levels, for example).

I was thinking of including the application along with our upcoming iRiff, the Tale of Despereaux, depending on if we can upload random (though virus-free!) content.  That's a good deal if you were going to buy the iRiff anyway, as the app is then "free", but it's kind of underhanded if you didn't want to watch ToD anyway [8^)

Any feedback on this?  I can do a bit more work if anyone is interested.

Jonathan

Please: if I'm suggesting too much to add to it, tell me to "f^(k-off".  Grin

That sounds superb!  I'd buy an iRiff I wasn't interested in to get it (and am not sure as yet if I'd be interested in the film, didn't recognize the title).  With the additions I'm suggesting, I'd pay maybe $10 or more for it for the time/effort/energy it would save reducing the background noise between each riff alone.  It would also mean that there wouldn't be a need to riff straight through with no breaks to keep the voice/volume the same, and allow for edits that fit basically seamlessly back into the mix.

The only drawback I can think of would be when there were intentional volume changes (for emphasis, or a riff supposed to be 'in the background').  If there were an option for 'allow this range of volume' (allowing one to vary 'lowest' and 'highest' volume, such as 60-80db or whatever) to allow for those, that might make it able to handle deliberate variations.  Since that could nearly counteract the purpose of the program, I'm bringing it up because for some people, even the 'reducing the background noise automatically' - by itself - would be worth having the program.  But if that 'allowable variation' range wasn't possible (or easy enough to add), those intentionally-high-volume and intentionally-low-volume riffs could be manually bumped when doing the final mixing of the iRiff track.

Somewhere in these iRiff help threads I think it was Conor that said that complete silence between riffs sounded 'wrong' (I think it was the harshness of the 'chop' between riff and background noise), so if the 'cut-to-silence' part was variable (possibly 'cut-to-' and then 5db increments of background noise, so each could choose their own: 5, 10, 15, 20) might be nice... though I'm not sure how much extra work that would add for you.

Or, possibly - thinking what you said about the 'Detach at Silence' function in Audacity to shift particular riffs - it could cut to complete silence, but only for a fraction of a second before going to background noise levels which could be adjusted as above.  A small fraction of a second dead silence should be hard to perceive in comparison with the 'low background noise that would follow, but should still allow Audacity's 'Detach at Silence' function to work.

And you including it with the iRiff sounds great.  Not at all underhanded, because you should get something for that work, even if people don't want that particular film's iRiff.  Or see if it is somehow possible to put it up as a separate paid-for item (so as to not confuse noobs to the site who download that iRiff for the film and then think that they have to use the program on your iRiff before playing it or something) so you still get paid for it... especially if you start adding features from people, like those I mention above.  Grin
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 03:34:33 AM by LucasM » Logged

    
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« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2010, 08:52:13 PM »

Thanks, LucasM, that's some great feedback!  Let me address some of those points in order:

* didn't recognize the title - No probem, this likely means you are a discerning individual with great taste ;-)  Here is the thread where we posted the preview: http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,17302.0.html

* Intentional volume changes - Right now the app keeps phrases together (at least a 0.5 second silence gap signifies the start of another phrase), so any dynamics _within_ that phrase are kept.  But you are right, if you want a sotto voce joke, right now you'd have to make it quieter later. (In Audacity, once all the parts are split, it's very easy to adjust the volume of a given riff using the multi-tool.)

* Complete silence - yep, sudden transitions sound terrible.  However, what the tool currently does is gently fade in with a smooth-ramped gain from 0 to 1 over a period of 1/10th of a second.  So, if the audio goes above the noise floor at point X, the tool starts to fade in from 0 to the original waveform from point X - 0.1s, which sounds great to my ear.  Ditto for the other end of each phrase, so 0.5s after the audio drops below the noise threshold, it is smoothly faded back out to 0.  No sudden transitions.

* Bundling with an iRiff vs.as a stand-along item - great idea!  I'll try to contact Conor and see if he can green-light including executable content.  I foresee problems with this, though, especially regarding antivirus issues (I'm imagining the transcoding system, only with added antivirus scanning), and customer satisfaction issues ("Hey, it doesn't run on my Apple ][, I want a refund!").

I will start another thread in a day or two to let people ask questions and post requests / demands. [8^) 

thanks,
Jonathan

P.S. Oh, I forgot one other feature...the tool softens the corners of any audio that saturated/clipped during the recording, so it's not perfect, but it's better than the original harsh "buzz".
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« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2010, 12:31:50 PM »

I found this useful tip for solving Audio/Video Syncing problems:

http://camstudio.org/blog/audiovideo-desynch-workaround


Download VirtualDub (Free) http://www.virtualdub.org/

Open up the AVI file in VirtualDub you recorded previously

Click “Video”, “Frame Rate…”, and under “Source rate adjustment” choose “Change so video and audio durations match”.

Save the AVI (using “Video” > “Direct stream copy” mode), open it in CamStudio Producer, and convert to SWF.



Check that page for lots of other tips in the comments section too.
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